Suzanne Chadwick  00:00

Hey, hey, my lovelies. Welcome back to another week on the podcast. It is amazing to have you here. I hope that you are having a good week, wherever you're doing. And you know, something I just want to say, because I have seen this through a lot of my community and on socials, that I know that the world is a heavy place. I feel like the world has been a heavy place for a long time. And I know that a lot of women in my community and on socials are really struggling with how we continue to run our businesses, when so much is going on in the world. And I just want to say that you have got the power to make a change. You can choose to not just watch and feel terrible about what's happening in the world. I think that that is an emotion that most of us feel anyway. But just know that you can decide to support whatever causes whatever is happening. Right now, as I'm recording this New South Wales and Queensland have had incredible floods. I have watched people like Kat Johns and Lisa Messenger and plant mama and so many people who are rallying others who can donate, who can support and what's going on in Ukraine, there is so much happening in the world, but just know that any little thing that you can do is worthwhile. Anything that you can do to get your communities to do something is worthwhile. So be the voice, be the action taker, be the person in the world that just doesn't watch and say, I feel bad for this. But I want you to be a leader, which is something we're talking about today. And something that I talk about a lot is being a leader, being a brand leader, being a leader to your community, stepping up in being a thought leader, be somebody who is not just a leader, but who is an action taker, and be somebody who leads by example, you know, share with your community, how they can help the causes that you're passionate about, share all the information that you can share what other people are doing that maybe they can be a part of. And so I just wanted to start this podcast today, saying that you are never helpless, you can be part of the solution and be part of contributing to positive outcomes. Unfortunately, we can't change everything, but we can be part of being that positive action in the world. Yeah. And we can be part of being the leader and the voice that rallies others to also make a difference and make a change. So one of the things I did want to say in today's podcast is that the Red Cross is creating and donating obviously supplies to Ukraine right now. The Red Cross is also supporting New South Wales and Queensland floods. And so if you want to donate to them, then make sure you head to their website. If you want to be part of what's happening then check out Lisa messenger check out plant mama, you know, take a look and say there are Instagram accounts that are sharing what's happening. So ask if you don't know where to look, then ask and see what you can do and every little bit helps see what you can do to help and be part of the solution. So that was something that I felt like I really wanted to share with you today. I am super excited to have Shane Hatton on the podcast today we are talking all about leadership. We are talking about how you can step up and be a better leader. And Shane and I met on Instagram. He's awesome. He is a leadership coach. He's a speaker. He's a trainer, a facilitator, and I really wanted to have him on the podcast. So a little bit about him is that Shane is a Queenslander by birth Mel Melbournian by choice which I love. curious by nature and Creative At Heart. He has spent the last decade developing remarkable leaders and teams, he is an expert in leadership communication, blending his experience in business and psychology to help leaders communicate, connect and collaborate more effectively in order to bring out the best in those they lead. And so, you know, I have obviously said to him, who my listeners are, who my community are. And so I know that you'll get so much out of this conversation today. And I can't wait for you to hear it. And if you've got any questions for me about how you can support the causes that are happening right now in the world, if you've got any questions to me on how you can be a better leader, as a woman in business, or as a person in business in your community, I am here for that conversation, too. But listen, without further ado,

Suzanne Chadwick  05:44

let's dive into this week's episode. I can't wait to share this with you.

Suzanne Chadwick  05:54

Shane, welcome to the podcast.

Shane Hatton  05:57

Suz, I'm so excited to talk to you just purely because I love talking to you talking to you in general.

Suzanne Chadwick  06:03

I know I'd like to share them. Like we're gonna talk about these systems. He's like, you just take it wherever you want to go. We'll see where the conversation I love that. I'm all for that. Let's have a chat. See what happens.

Shane Hatton  06:13

Yeah, I'm all just for like I forget sometimes that we're on a podcast. And so we'll just chat and we'll have a conversation. And then I forget that there's a lot of people that are listening to us have a conversation, which I'm okay with.

Suzanne Chadwick  06:23

Yeah, but so good. And as always, like we got chatting. And then we were talking about the fact that you've written your new book and imposter syndrome and all the rest of it that we kind of go through the lizard brain. And then I'm like, stop talking. This is so good. We have to add this to the fun. So I know, I know, we're gonna we're gonna give a lot of gems, but let's just start I've introduced you to my audience. And we're gonna dive into a few things. But how did you get here? Why do you do what you do? Tell us a little bit about that first, and then we're going to get into all the beats.

Shane Hatton  06:59

Oh, gosh, that's such a it's such a weird twisting kind of journey. And I don't know if you found this with your own experience. But most of the things that you do in the moment, you'd never see how they play a part in forming and shaping who you are and what you do, until you look back at your journey. And you go, Oh my gosh, everything was setting me up for this moment. So I have this weird eclectic background of kind of work in marketing, which is my kind of degree that I did. I did event management. One of my first jobs is I was coaching event managers in communities and teach them how to work with local government, which was basically just teaching them how to deal with 19,000 meetings that took place in government and how to basically get around some of those. Then I went and did some consulting business in marketing, and then basically uprooted my life. I grew up in Queensland little small town called Bundaberg, which people probably know either for Bundaberg rum or Bundaberg ginger beer, depending on your drink preference. And then I kind of had this twisting road between kind of like not for profit, and I did counselling, I went and did a counselling degree. So I'm a trained counsellor, for some reason. And then kind of everything kind of rolled into one that most of my career has been spent developing leadership capabilities. And so the marketing kind of gives me this business edge and this kind of personal positioning edge. And then the counselling gives me a lot more of that people side of business. And I kind of collide those two worlds in doing what I do now.

Suzanne Chadwick  08:30

Which is amazing. And so what do you do now? Like, who are you working with? At the moment? Yeah, yeah.

Shane Hatton  08:36

So I, I would love to say that there's like one particular group of people that I work with, but I work across every industry and sector. And I would say, you know, across government, not for profit, you know, private sector, but there's the people that I love working with other kind of meat in the sandwich of an organisation like the people, leaders, like those people right in the centre of it, who essentially are aspiring to be kind of senior leaders in the business, or they're just trying to find their feet having just been promoted into some kind of leadership, leadership position, and they're just the people that I love.

Suzanne Chadwick  09:06

That's so good. So you know, I was talking about, it's not what you do, but it's what you're here to do. And so if I was to ask you, what are you here to do? Like, what are you here to do? What is the impact you want to have? Like, what is that thing for you?

Shane Hatton  09:23

Ah, first of all, great question. I think, like, we kind of like all still figuring that out, like in so many ways, but I would say for me, I have learned that leadership creates multiplied impact. Like for me, when you impact a leader, you impact the team, and you impact the people in their world and their family. And so my, like, why am I here? I want to leave a legacy by multiplying my impact through leaders. So when I'm developing leaders, whatever that you know, looks like whether it's in a business with a group or whether it's one on one my goal is like, if I can leave legacy that I've impacted you that I know that I've impacted many people through you. And so yeah, I just want to do more of that.

Suzanne Chadwick  10:05

Yeah, I love that. That's so good. We had this conversation at the retreat, the rise retreat that I recently ran. And it was about thought leadership and the fact that, you know, we want to be known for something. So what is it that we're here to do? What is the impact that we want to have on the wider community? What's the influence we want to have on the individual? And then what's that relationship look like as well. And I just think you're so right, when we impact or influence one person, or we support them to become so much better at what they do that is such a ripple effect. And I love that. So good

Shane Hatton  10:42

Always ask that person. Like, if you if I said to even to people listening now, it's like, Who is that, like, person that stands out in your mind as someone who made the biggest impact on you. And there's always like a face or a name that comes to mind it maybe it was like, Oh, my gosh, I have so many people, that's my problem is that I have different people at different stages of my journey. Like my first mentor, I actually wrote about him in my last book, we were we were sitting at a little dodgy Italian cafe. And he would catch up with me once a week. And we had this system when I was and I was I was in high school at the time. And we had this system where basically, we we did school four days a week, and we had a day off to work. So we were allowed to kind of do a day of work. And I didn't have a job at the time. So I just used to hang out with this guy and just follow him around everywhere. I was the most annoying kid ever. But he basically would just take me everywhere. So like, I mean, there's everywhere. So like he would go to the gym for his lunch break. And I would go and stand next to him while he's lifting weights and just talk to him. And I now look back and go, that must be annoying. I was in grade 12. I was like, I could have worked out with him. I just I just talked because I loved I found that he would just share leadership and wisdom and insight with me. And he's like, literally some of the things he's told me I still carry to this day, as little kind of bits of wisdom that have inspired me and I just, there's people like that. And that's the kind of person I described as the remarkable leader, like the remarkable leader is the one that stands out as your mind, in your mind as someone who has just made a difference in your life.

Suzanne Chadwick  12:17

Yeah, I for me, it's my it was my debate teacher, Mrs. David when I was 16. She's She was a massive influence. And then my principal at the time as well, Di Fleming, who was just like a trailblazer in her in her industry and in what she did, and then in her thinking and the way that she influenced us. And yeah, I think it's amazing to think back on the people that have had a huge impact. I know, I was watching some of your videos on your website as well, which I loved. And you were saying that, you know, you've been working in the last 10 years to create remarkable leaders. And what they are is, you know, leadership that makes a difference that stands out in the back of your mind, a remarkable leader is somebody you talk about and that you remember. And so we were chatting about the fact that my listeners are mainly but not always, women in business, who you know, something like they need to lead themselves. They lead their clients, and a lot of times they lead their communities. And so what do you think we need to be thinking about when it comes to making the decision to be a leader in our space?

Shane Hatton  13:36

I love, I love talking with you because you bring out the best conversations. It's such a big topic, right? If we were to really dive into that there's like, Okay, what's the very first decision? And then what's the subsequent decisions that? Let's let's dive into I mean, when I think about is number one is deciding who gets to be a leader. I really it's like, can I be a leader? Do I have the right to be a leader? Do I like really me? Like, I don't have a huge following or I don't have you know, a huge customer base? can I really be a leader? And I don't know, like what what do you think? Like, what's, what's your thoughts?

Suzanne Chadwick  14:11

Well, it kind of comes back to that question. Do I have the right to be a leader? Am I worthy of being a leader? Do I have what it takes to be a leader comes back to which I love I love serendipity? Is that when we were first talking about you writing this second book, and you were saying which I'm just gonna say Elizabeth Gilbert talks about everybody that listens to like, Oh my God, here she goes again. You know, my lovelies, which is we can put work out into the world and it gets received in different ways. But when we're creating, we do kind of go down the path of is this good enough? Am I good enough? Like, is anybody gonna like this? And I feel like it's the same with leadership. It's like is am I enough? Is this enough? Is what I say enough is how I lead enough. Am I even worthy of this? And I feel like those two things. It is that lizard brain. But I for me, I just think, why not? Like, what, why wouldn't I like if I want to do it, I'm not I don't have any, I don't think I have expectations on myself to be a certain type of leader. I'm just like, I have people that want to come along on the journey. Let's, let's go together. And so that's the kind of leader that I think is like, it's not pressure on yourself to be, or do or have this grand kind of persona, but just, let's just take people along on the journey and see what happens.

Shane Hatton  15:54

I love it. But the question I often ask myself is like, if leadership really is about influence like that, really is, when I lead someone, I'm influencing them in some way, for good or for bad. And really, when you think about it, and so the question that I would ask myself is, can I live a life without any influence. And if I can, then sure, I can avoid leadership. But if you really think about it, you might be a mum, with a little kid, you might be you know, really, in any sphere of life, in any stage of life, you might just be starting your career, or you might be towards the end of your career is to just reflect personally and go, do I have zero influence on anybody around me, and if I do, then great, I can avoid it. And probably that person is listening to this podcast, maybe two or three years time, if they're in a cave, somewhere isolated from community, like that would be the person that may if that's you, and you're listening to us in a cave right now, and you have no contact with anyone, maybe you could get away with saying, I'm not a leader. But if you have any kind of influence over anybody else, that I would say, yes, you have every right to be a leader.

Suzanne Chadwick  16:58

I love that. But I just kind of wanna go back to there when you have every right to be a leader. And I do think that people sometimes think will, like, who am I to be a leader? And maybe I don't have the skills to be a leader. And so it's also that, what does that mean? Like, then who does have the skills? And how do we measure that?

Shane Hatton  17:18

Huge, huge question. I reckon there's three big problems that show up every time I've talked to someone about leadership, and these are people who are starting their leadership journey, people have been in the leadership journey for a long time. And I say that in terms of a paid sense, and I don't mean, as a, you know, can I be elite, I mean, in a corporate setting, typically, those are the leaders that I work with. And there's three big challenges. Number one, they go, I don't know, if I really have the confidence to show up as a leader, like, I don't know if I have the confidence to do that. And the first one, the second one is, I don't know if I have the skills or the capability to do that. And the third one is, I don't even know who to turn to, to find out the answer to either of those, like, I don't know where to go to get to get the skills for I don't know where to turn to, to kind of find that the sense of confidence that comes from that. And so what I say to those people is you need to kind of work on three big areas, which is, number one is work on your belief systems around leadership, like we talked about confidence, but confidence is a product is confidence is a product of a belief system that we hold about ourselves about leadership and about the world. So the first one is work on your belief systems then work on the performance systems, like what does good leadership do? So rather than just like, What do I be as a leader, what do I now do as a leader? And how do I build that capability? And the third one is work on your support systems, which is your network and your people around you to help answer some of those questions to encourage you to navigate the highs and lows of leadership. And so those are probably the big three areas, or that I focus on. But the one that we start with is always the most important is what are your belief systems about leadership?

Suzanne Chadwick  18:49

Amazing. So talk to me more about that. What does that mean?

Shane Hatton  18:52

Yeah, I mean, if we talk about people who say I want to feel more confident as a leader, or and let's just put this in the leadership context, let's talk about this. You're running your own business, I want to feel more confident as a business owner, I want to feel more confident as a man or woman, I want to feel more confident as a person, like, what does that look like for you? Well, we generally have an outcome that we're looking towards, it's like, maybe I just want to speak a little bit bolder, or I want to, you know, share my ideas and feel a little less attached to them, like whatever the outcomes are. If we dig below the surface, probably sitting below is some kind of belief about ourselves, about our context or about the world which isn't serving us. Yeah, it's a belief that is not helping us to step into that space where we can shop with confidence. And so most of the time, we live completely unaware of those beliefs that are sitting below the surface. And when we all of a sudden peel back the layers and find them we go oh my gosh, I've had this for so long, and I didn't even know that it was there.

Suzanne Chadwick  19:49

Yeah, and I've been talking about this so much, Shane, like I love that you brought this up. One of the one of the podcasts in January that I share was a belief ladders and how we take out beliefs and like, I have this belief. And then what I need is to have this next belief. And then I have another belief that helps me to achieve or get to where I want to go. And I did a live the other day with, with some of the ladies from the retreat. And I've been talking about courage over confidence, forget about confidence, forget about, Do I have it? Do I not have it, ask yourself, am I willing to step up in courage and do this thing that I want to do? And so Lisa, from the blonde campaign, she was saying, Oh, my God Suz, I feel like I've been sitting there going, I, you know, I've lost my confidence. Like, I used to have confidence. And now I don't have it. And she's like, you know, as if I'm gonna find it somewhere one day, like, I lost it physically. And now I'm gonna find it. But I just want to Yeah, I just, I think one of my big messages at the moment. And I love it's so in line with what you've just said, is, if you want to decide to be a leader, then step up in the courage of doing that, with the belief that you have the ability to make a positive impact to do the things that you want. And almost just stop looking for confidence. Because confidence is fluid, it comes and goes, sometimes, depending on my mood, I'll feel more confident. And if I'm feeling a bit blue, when I'm having blue Tuesday, or just not feeling great, I'll just be like, I don't feel very confident about that. Like it's such a fluid, emotional thing. I'm just like, today, I'm just going to step up in courage and do this. So

Shane Hatton  21:32

yes, 1000 times, yes. Because it is that I think one of the things is, is we kind of go up and down based on our emotional state, and we feel certain things, but one of the things that sits below that is always that core belief and conviction. And so there's some days that I show up and I go, No, I don't want to, I don't want to be a leader. I feel like being a leader today. It's tough like, people don't, people aren't always kind to you, as a leader, that people aren't always kind to you as a business owner. things don't work out the way you want to go. And you go, okay, my confidence has taken a hit here. And it's and it's really rattled me. And then I go, Okay, well, alright, peel back the layer of that confidence kind of conversation and go, what's your belief here? What do you believe about yourself? Do you believe that you're worthy of love? Do you believe that? You know, do you believe that you have a legacy to leave in your business and all of a sudden, it's like connecting back to purpose and underlying belief to go, okay. Alright, tough day, but helpful belief, rather than, okay. Every day. I'm kind of gauging it based on my emotions or my feelings. And yeah,

Suzanne Chadwick  22:33

yeah, I love that. And I heard somebody else say, like, are you willing to hold on to the belief even when things are not going your way? And that's something that I've been really leaning into, like, even when, you know, you didn't hit the financial goal, or you didn't achieve the thing, or it didn't work out the way that you thought? Are you willing to believe or hold on to the belief that it's 100% possible, and that it's just a journey that you've got to continue on as well? And so I think, yeah, just now, like, it's never a final thing. It's just where we are in that journey to it.

Shane Hatton  23:09

Yeah, it's, you know, it's a fine line that I find fascinating. And I had this conversation, maybe about a year ago with Cameron Schwab, who was, he was a, you know, a CEO of the Richmond Football Club. And he was given his first COO when he was 22 years old, which is just like, imagine taking on that kind of responsibility. That kind of age, I asked him, I said, Did you ever just feel like a bit of an imposter? Or do you feel like a bit of a fraud, like being so young and brought into that? And he said, Yeah, I felt it when I went in. And I felt until the day I left, and I was like, What do you mean, he's like, he said, that there's always that feeling of, of never being where you wanted to be like, I think most leaders or business owners, especially entrepreneurs, they see the future, and they see it in a way, that's where we could be. But then they have to live in the present, and go, like, there's always a disconnect between what I see and what I want to be than where I am now. And so if you think about that you'll ever feel like you're not where you're supposed to be. And you'll always feel like you should be two or three steps ahead of where you are, rather than recognising. That's my entrepreneurial spirit, or that's my visionary leadership. And I'm okay that I'm not there yet. It's a driver and a motivator, rather than a de motivator and a discouraged.

Suzanne Chadwick  24:18

It's so interesting, because it's really how you frame it in your own mind, isn't it? It's like, okay, that's, that's my drive. That's my ambition. That's my desire. And I'll get there. But it doesn't have to be a negative even though I wanted it like even though I wanted really want it now. I like I can, I can recognise it for what it is and also be present and do what I need to do now. It can be hard, it can be

Shane Hatton  24:44

super hard. It's super hard, and I always go like when I'm caught up, looking at where I want to be in recognising that I'm not there. It's when I have to really intentionally go back and look at where I was and go okay, so I'm not where I want to be, but I'm not where I used to be. And so I can just be content with where I am right now, and we just don't give ourselves enough credit for the progress we make, we always, we always give ourselves a heap of criticism for where we think we should be, and not enough credit of where we've come from, and where we've made it to, which I think is just, I don't know, maybe it's human nature, maybe it's just me.

Suzanne Chadwick  25:17

I think it's, I totally think it's human nature. I don't think we celebrate our wins as much as we should. I think that we always want to be further along than where we are. Even when we reach certain milestones and goals. It's great, but then it's like, what's next? It's never enough. Like it's a really, it's an interesting, and I think entrepreneurs are naturally ambitious. And so I think that just comes with the territory.

Shane Hatton  25:45

I think so that I think the other tension to managing all of this is to go okay, so how do I hold a belief that's tight enough to get some conviction about, but loose enough that it doesn't get left as an outdated or an unhelpful belief over time. And I think that's one of the things I've noticed of late, we've got people that are stepping out and kind of working and leading and operating out of a belief that was helpful 10 years ago, and it doesn't serve us today. But because we've held on to that belief, and it's been so important to us, we don't want to let it go. Because we're like, if I let it go, then I'm not being true to myself. And actually, someone said to me recently, they said, you know, you've got to regularly take your beliefs out and hang them up on the clothesline and look back and assess them and decide for yourself whether or not they're still true. And I thought that was kind of a cool metaphor, but I would tweak it. And I would say don't step back and ask Is this true? Step back and ask Is this helpful? Like, is it helpful for me to hold this belief, because if you look at truth, through the history, truth, in many ways, what we understand is truth changes. So you might go, what we used to think this about the world, and we've realised we were really wrong. And you could hold the wrong belief and carry it through. That's not helpful for you. So yeah, ask yourself regularly as a leader, as a business owner, what beliefs do I hold hold about myself, about leadership, about business about the world in general? And is this belief serving the kind of person that I want to become? Or is this belief helpful for where I am right now?

Suzanne Chadwick  27:12

Yeah, I love that. That's so good. When I do the 90 day sprints with clients and stuff we do, like what are your goals? What are your actions? What are you going to do? And then what are the beliefs that you need in order to execute on that? Because like you said, it's so unseen. And is it helpful? Because you're like, like, why am I not doing this thing that I've had on my to do list or in my plan, or whatever, for the last three quarters, but I've not actually achieved it. And you can have all of the strategies and tactics in the world. But if you don't believe that it's possible, if you don't believe you deserve it, if you don't believe that, you can do it, then you're never going to execute on it. So I think it's yeah, it's I love that is this helpful? I think that's really

Shane Hatton  28:02

one of the one of the most important topics that's most often unspoken about, is the the unspoken rulebook that we carry about ourselves, others in the world, like I talk about this in my next book, but we talk you know, it relates a lot in kind of therapy and kind of psychology, when we talk about the, the unspoken expectations of self, others in the world. And it is almost like this invisible rulebook that we carry around on the inside that we judge ourselves against, but more importantly, we judge others against. And we think to ourselves, everybody else has this rulebook. And they don't, they've got their own. They're playing to a different set of rules. We're all playing the same game game, we're playing to a different set of rules. And that is so confusing.

Suzanne Chadwick  28:45

Do you not have my rulebook? Shane are people not playing to my rules

Shane Hatton  28:50

I reckon ours would be pretty similar, I reckon, based on our conversations, but yeah, they're different. Yeah,

Suzanne Chadwick  28:55

they're different. Interesting. So tell me a little bit more about so your new book, what's it called?

Shane Hatton  29:01

It's called Let's Talk Culture, the conversations you need to create the team you want.

Suzanne Chadwick  29:05

And so what has some of the research some of the interesting research been that you've kind of found based on what you were just talking about a second ago?

Shane Hatton  29:14

Yeah. I mean, it's huge. One of the big reasons that I wrote the book is that, you know, culture is such a huge topic of conversation, especially in executive leadership and kind of senior leadership or business leadership. But most people that we talk to, they talk about culture, but don't really know what culture is. And that was one of the most fascinating insights that came out of the study. It was the first one is we basically asked, we studied 1000 people, leaders, middle managers across Australia, and we wanted to learn what they thought about culture, what they believed about it. And one of the questions was, Can you define organisational culture, organisational intent and culture? And it was 97% said yes, definitely. Yep, absolutely. We can we can define it. And then the next question was, tell us your definition of organisational and team culture. And the results were around one in 10 could give us an answer of what organisational team culture was. Most people that we talked to describe the outcomes of culture. So they said things like, our culture, our organisation is inclusive and engaging our organisation is fun, or, you know, it's the vibe in our business. You know, there were things like that. And a couple of responses, which was actually a quite a popular one was just good. That was just what they said, Good. That was their response to the definition of culture.

Suzanne Chadwick  30:32

Can I tell you what I think it is?

Shane Hatton  30:35

Yes, please do.

Suzanne Chadwick  30:36

And then you can tell me that I'm wrong. No, I would say culture as the, like, unspoken rules and practices, ways of working, that an organisation and its people adhere to it to me, cuz I kind of feel like it's like, what we as a whole, how we how we operate. Is that wrong?

Shane Hatton  31:05

Well, here's the thing about it, right? I'm not gonna tell you, you're wrong. And I'll tell you why. Because I think it's a great definition, what you just gave us a really good definition. And probably one of the most articulate definitions that we heard in terms of the responses from people, because most people one out of the one in 10, that had some kind of consistent definition, they essentially talked about that as the values, behaviours and expectations that guide, you know, our behaviour in the business. It was very technical. And I was like, I'm going through because I have a list of all the individual responses, like that's a very common definition that keeps coming up. And I thought to myself, if I'd been asked if I knew the definition and said, Yes. And then was put on the spot to give the definition of the of the of culture, what would I do? And like, of course, I would just go to Google. So I googled define organisational culture. And the thing that came up was the answer everybody's question. So the one in 10, who gave us a definition of it, then Google the answer. And it just highlighted

Suzanne Chadwick  32:02

I'll just Google it

Shane Hatton  32:04

you didn't, I'm watching you? Yeah, that's why I said like, you should be very happy with that answer. But people basically just, they felt like they needed to know and they couldn't define it. And the reason why so hard to define, like, if we just take the last 20 years prior to Google, prior to like, all about online side of things, let's talk just academically is 54 academic definitions of culture, that we're all different, all had similarities, but they were all different. Like the one that people are so confused, is because we kind of don't really know what it is. And

Suzanne Chadwick  32:36

But we know what it is and what it's not we know what when it's good, and when it's bad. So like, we're talking I'm like, when I think of organisation, like they had such a great culture, like super supportive, fun, smart people, like it was just the collective was a great experience. So it kind of comes back to brand experience, almost like all of the touch points that I had, within the organisation from learning and development to leadership to people to conversation was good, bad culture was didn't want to be there. No, like, no communication. Just, you know, whatever, whatever, those bad things, it's really interesting, because I feel like people are very clear on what a good and a bad culture is.

Shane Hatton  33:22

The outcomes of good and bad culture, know that they can describe culture. So we go, okay, I know culture is good when it has these kinds of characteristics, which is the output of culture, or you know, or they just say cultures good or bad. And then it kind of takes a step back and go, Okay, so how do we define good? Like, how do we define healthy and toxic culture? So let's give you an example. One culture they're on call 24/7. That's, that's the nature of their role. Another culture, imagine being on call 24/7, it would be toxic, right? So in one we go healthy culture. Yep, that's just part of our expectations of each other. Yeah, we're always on call. Next one, not, don't call me outside of five o'clock on a Friday, or don't touch me on my weekend, because it's my time off. So healthy and toxic, are really hard to define. But more often than not, we describe all the behaviours, or the things that we see, or we notice and we go, oh, that's kind of a good culture, because it's a fit for me, or it's like, we would describe them as generally good. But yeah, it's still really complex to try and define

Suzanne Chadwick  34:21

and I was just about to say, it's so personal, isn't it? Because this the things that I love, and even organisations like that, then to me, it's a great culture. But if somebody doesn't have the beliefs and desires and you know, of like what I have, then there might be like, now like, not great. So, so interesting.

Shane Hatton  34:43

And let's, let's link that back to the conversation that we've been having in this podcast so far, because I could honestly I could talk about the book all day. But what what so what is the kind of key connector in all of this is that we have expectations around culture, what it should be How it shouldn't be built. And so to the people who are leading the team, so does the organisation who's creating the culture. But more often than not, we never have a conversation about how we want to do things as a collective. And what does it look like to bring and put all those expectations of each other on the table and go, Okay, what unites us? What do we all have in common here. And so the books called Let's Talk Culture with the emphasis on talk, because most of the time cultures interpreted, and there's really great quote that says, I think cameras by Tony, someone basically said, What is what isn't explicit is interpreted, and felt and what's, or it's what's what's felt, and then what's felt is interpreted and what's interpreted as often wrong. And so that's the danger of culture, when we never talk about culture, what the culture we want to create is, everybody's left to try and interpret what it is. And most of the time we get that wrong. So that's really what we're trying to do is like, how do we make some of these unspoken things, our expectations, our beliefs, what we see the world? How do we make them more explicit and spoken?

Suzanne Chadwick  36:00

So interesting? See, so I'm now trying to think so as a leader in my community, as a coach in my programmes, what's the culture that I want to cultivate? And have? And how, how can I be explicit with how I create that? Yeah. What do you think? So Shane, how do I do that?

Shane Hatton  36:27

I love it, I love it. Because, I mean, it's gonna look different based on your context. So like, if you're a business, and you're building a community, you so much set and define that culture for other people. And if and when I say, you set and define it, if you want it to be an intentional culture, culture exists, regardless of whether you have a culture, whether you say you have a culture, or you don't, the culture really is just the sum average, or the norms that we do the way that we do things, right. So one of the things that was common across all the definitions of culture, there were really four big things that were common. Number one, culture has a collective element, which means that it can exist as an individual, like you don't have a culture, I don't have a culture, but together, we can have culture. So there's a collective element. The second thing is a social learning element that comes through in everything we learn about culture by observation and interpreting the things around us from other people. The second element, the third one, is that there's an observable element to culture, we have to be able to notice things or see things. So there's observable behaviours that we say, Okay, so what's going on there? Is that tolerated, is that not tolerated, and we learn from those behaviours. And then there's an unseen element to culture, which is coming back to the conversation will be having our beliefs and our expectations. And so in terms of defining the culture, for your community, for your business, for your team, what that's looking like, number one, is you need to have an expectation conversation. And the expectation conversation is about making the unspoken spoken. So it's about how do I make those unseen elements, my beliefs, my expectations of you, your expectations of me? How do we make them really, really clear and explicit? So when you show up and you say, I want to create a positive environment, I talk to leaders all the time and go, What do you want for your team? I just want it to feel really positive. My next question is, when was the last time you told your team that? Like, I don't think I've ever told my team that, like, so you have an expectation of them that they don't know you have an expectation of. So number one is the expectation conversation make the unspoken unspoken. Conversation number two, is about how do you now bring the observable elements to that, which is really about the clarification conversation? And that's about how do we make the invisible elements of our culture more observable? So if you're in a community, what kind of rituals and things do you have in your community that you celebrate? Like, do you celebrate income? Do you celebrate progress? Do you celebrate achievement? Like what are some of the things that you celebrate in your community? Because that starts to shape some of the culture and the observable behaviours in that community. And then the third one is around really the communication conversation, which is about how do we start to make these words so like positivity, or optimism or energy or enthusiasm or bold or whatever that is, how do we start to work it out? Work that into our day to day vocab? So what are some of the I call them team memes? So like your community memes, right? Like you would have heaps of them Sue's like you, you talk about, like some of your catch phrases or statements that you make that everyone goes, oh my gosh, yes, that sums up our culture, who we are what we're trying to be like, how can you start to intentionally create more of those kind of memes that start to catch and start to spread within the culture?

Suzanne Chadwick  39:34

Yes, I got I mean, even as you were speaking, it's just it's so interesting, because so I was telling some clients the other day just around when you bring people in to say your programmes, about setting the expectation about what this is, what this experience is going to be like and and how you're going to be and how they like how they can get the best out of this. And I feel like that's that really articulating the What this space is going to be like for you. So welcome in, in order for you to get the most out of it, this is what you can do, this is how we're going to be, this is how I'm going to show up, these are the conversations we're going to have. We're all about the wins, we want you to celebrate, like all. And it's really just giving an upfront overview of like, what you can expect, now that you're here and in this space as well. And I think that it's, I feel like we do it at events too. Like, I feel like it's something from a brand experience perspective. We look at like, what, what is the environment that we want to create? How do we want people to be, and it's also telling them how we want them to be like, when somebody new comes in, we want you all to welcome them, like, you know, put your arms around them and like digitally, put your arms around them and welcome them in. And, you know, we want to be inclusive, and we want to be, you know, thoughtful to one another. We want to be considerate, and we want to be able to be honest, like, you know, truth and being honest about what's happening in business. And I think just talking more about that can be so helpful to people to understand how to navigate new spaces and new communities and new teams and that sort of thing.

Shane Hatton  41:22

Yes, it's so like, who says Claire's kind? Like, isn't that Brene? Brown? Does she say that? But actually might be? Maybe? I think Brene says I think Brene Brown says everything in my mind.

Suzanne Chadwick  41:35

It's like Liz says everything. Liz says that.

Shane Hatton  41:39

Sure Liz said it to possibly. Or it might have been in radical candour was one of those ones. But basically, this whole idea of clears and clears con, when people don't have to come into that culture and to the social learning element and go, Is this okay? Is this not okay? Like we it's actually so kind to the people that are coming into our programmes or into our business, we just go you know what, in this in this community, we do it this way. And it's not right, it's not wrong. It's that the way that we do things in this community. And if you choose to come in and not do that, that's okay. But it's not going to feel it won't feel like the norm here. I think that's one of the things that I have this really interesting conversation, which if you think about like you think about a Venn diagram is like, you know, three circles. If you think about that, as culture being the intersection of you, me and asked, which is I have expectations of you, you have expectations of me. And the organisation or the collective has an expectation of us, like we've talked about like, Is the goal to just bring those closer together so that you end up with this overlap of all three. Now, that's not the goal of culture, culture is not to have one homogenous blob, that all looks the same. And the way I would say it is I use this phrase be aligned at the core and inclusive at the edges, which is basically the goal is to find what do we all three of us have in common that we say, Yep, this is what unites us and brings us together in terms of our collective culture. But at the same time, we love and we value your edges, because what you bring into the culture adds contribution and value and helps us to evolve our culture over time.

Suzanne Chadwick  43:12

Yeah, and we have to evolve. I just think that's where that's where the I think that's where the amazingness comes in is as we evolve and recreate. And also, I love that you were sort of talking about that core, because also, you know, when we create, and we have others that contribute to the conversation, then we can co create together and bring, bring all of those ideas, you know, and challenges and everything else that comes with it, and evolve together. So I think that that is so awesome. So Shane, I did have another question for you. What skill set? And I'm not sure if that's the right word, but what skills skill set do you think helps us to increase our impact and influences leaders?

Shane Hatton  44:05

Big question, because again, like if you were to prioritise them, which ones have the most weight, which ones are the most important to develop? I don't know that there is one answer to that. It's like whenever someone asked, like, what's your top piece of advice? And I'm like, Well, I can give you a piece of advice. I don't know if it's my top piece of advice. I always think about most leaders and business owners have three. When I when I do more with with corporates, we have three kind of metaphorical spaces. And I talk about that as the conference room, the meeting room, the lunch room, and I always ask people the question of like, Where does leadership happen? And when I asked that people to that question to clients, I've had all kinds of responses. Some people like, you know, it happens at our town halls, nobody will like it happens in the hallways, and some people like happens everywhere. And someone said, it happens on Tuesdays and I was like and they were like yeah, because our exact meetings happen. On Mondays, and then it all gets filtered down to the business on Tuesdays. That's where the leadership happens. So I was like, huh, funny. But I always go, like, where does it happen and I always think about like leadership happens for me in three spaces in the business, it happens in the conference room, which for me is a metaphorical space that represents the collective. So it's when we're leading one to many, it happens in the meeting room for me, which is where it's like one to one, and it's a bit more intimate and a little bit more personal. And then it happens in the in the lunch room for me, which is the more conversational, it's the more kind of like, outside of the formalities and the more cultural. So I always say, if you're going to develop three capabilities, develop your collective leadership, your individual leadership and your cultural leadership, develop the skill sets of what it takes to communicate your ideas to the masses, and to mobilise them to the masses, learn the skills to lead that individual really well, and actually have really meaningful and honest conversations at an individual level. And they'll learn how to build a community in at a cultural level. So I think, outside of the corporate sense, it's relevant across all businesses and all spaces, just focus on those three big areas.

Suzanne Chadwick  46:08

So good, I love that I love when you do like once I have one, two threes, I like a one, two and the three. it works, it works. So well. That's so good. And so is there anything just to leave us with? Is there anything that came out of your research, or that you've kind of learned maybe in the last year or two, under the circumstances that we've been in? That has been something either profound or interesting, or just something that you've really developed and evolved your thinking with? Like, what's something that you're like? I totally, like get this now, or discovered that? Ah,

Shane Hatton  46:51

there was so many of those little moments. It wasn't really just one big epiphany kind of moment. I think the one that I've already touched on a little bit, so I won't talk too much again, but which is this idea that, like, when it comes to culture, like culture can be influenced? Like when it comes to like, can I create the culture that I want? The answer that question is yes. We asked people in our study, do you believe that culture can be influenced and wanting to said no. And that was so confronting to me, because it kind of creates this helplessness, which is that if I don't like the environment that I'm in, or the environment that I'm leading, there's nothing I can do to change it? And the answer to that is, yes, you can change it. But more often than not, people are trying to interpret why you change. And I think the more explicit, you can be, like, make that rulebook that you're carrying around, put it out on the table and read it out loud, you'll either realise that the rulebook is not serving you or that no one else knows that that's a robot keep playing to. And you're all you might find that we actually have some things in common across our robots. So that was one that you can, one of the other ones I found so fascinating. We asked people like, what do you think of the big culture builders? And what do you think of the big culture killers, and there was basically the top five culture builders, top five culture killers, but the one that I found was really kind of prominent in what kills culture is absent or disconnected leaders or absent or disconnected leadership. And so I say that more so to listen to encourage people that are listening, that when you show up, and I mean, really show up, like, people take notice. And when you shrink back and says, You are all about being bold, like and I'm saying, like when you shrink back, people notice, yeah, and so as a leader, as a business owner, as a woman, as a person, as a human being show up, because people notice.

Suzanne Chadwick  48:46

Well, I think that is the perfect thing to end on. Can I just say show up? Because people notice I love it. So good. Shane. We can talk all day. Probably well. So good. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast and sharing that I, I do you know, you know, I come from a corporate background, I totally see the flow between corporate and entrepreneurship and leading, like leading your community leading a team in a corporate, whatever it is, there are so many things that we can learn as entrepreneurs from the work that you've done, and from, you know, even our, our common discussion on beliefs, like I love that you brought that up, because it's been something I've been talking about so much on the podcast lately. So I think it just fits in so well. So thanks so much for sharing.

Shane Hatton  49:43

Suz I love any chance I get to talk to you and it's such a privilege. Thanks for inviting me on

Suzanne Chadwick  49:49

my pleasure. Now where can people find you? What's the best place to go and connect with you as well?

Shane Hatton  49:56

Pretty much everywhere. So basically, I managed to score the username at shanemhatton on pretty much every platform. Depending on what you want from me, if you want a little bit more of like, my personal life, Instagram I show up there, it's like a mix of personal and business. If you want to just keep it professional, we can hang out on LinkedIn and be professional friends. And if you if you really like, you just don't want any kind of professionalism at all, you can just go to tik tok, but look, I had one viral post and I got 5000 followers as a result of it. I did nothing with it. So that's what I mean. Like, you're not gonna find anything exciting or thrilling.

Suzanne Chadwick  50:35

I love it. You're like killing mic drop viral posts. 5000 followers. I'm done. Sorry, good. Well, we will have all of your links in the show notes. Obviously, I do also have a lot of listeners that are in corporate as well. So if you're looking for a speaker, a trainer, a coach all the rest of it, then definitely check Shane out. But I love our chat says so good.

Shane Hatton  50:59

Thank you too kind Thank you.

Suzanne Chadwick  51:04

So good. I love chatting to Shane. He's so awesome. So many insights worked with so many people, such a different way of looking at leadership and how we become really bold leaders. And I am here for it. That is what I talk about in amplify all the time as well like becoming that bold leader, that thought leader, the person who is sharing the ideas and the concepts and bringing people along on the journey. So I just think it doesn't really matter whether somebody is in corporate or the in the entrepreneurial space. I think there are so many lessons that we can learn and that we can take away from it. So really love that conversation. I hope you enjoyed it, too. I hope that you took something away from it. And make sure you go connect with Shane. He's just a gem. He's so lovely. We met on Instagram. We've been chatting for a long time. And then finally around Christmas time I went out for dinner with him and Marian and Steph Clark and turned Instagram friends into real life. Which is always so cool. So I hope you enjoyed it. I love this episode.